Though I'd agree with him that, contra Steven, there really are women that beautiful, even without the lighting and make-up, the rest of Eric's post is a puzzling diatribe against the simple joys of looking, and normal biology.
I can certainly understand a taste that finds the string bikini lewd and less sexy than either nudity or more modest clothing, and that most women ought to stay out of thongs. (Technical aside here: there is a distinction between a string bikini and a thong bikini.) Still, there's something a bit too fastidious about someone whose first reaction to a good-looking young woman in a string bikini is to fret that the style doesn't promote the illusion of a tiny butt. Eric must be quite the man of exacting taste if he finds thongs unflattering to those shapely tushies he links to. But, to each his own. (I got the spouse's professional guy opinion on this: "I can think of a good reason why I wouldn't want those women walking around me in those thongs, but it's not because they don't look good.")
Worse is the contention that anything that isn't a "meaningful" interaction between the sexes, that doesn't involve an appreciation of the whole person, is "pseudo-sexuality", not real sexuality. Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm sure that 99.9% of the men who ever flirted with me in my life had no tearing need to know me in the fullness of my humanity. They flirt because flirting is fun, because it is a civilized pleasure, and for no other reason that I'm female and happen to be there. And this has everything to do with sexuality, and it is not "pseudo" because it is light and fleeting. Same with a man's "girlwatching". He looks on them with desire because they are beautiful and desirable, and beauty and desire are good in themselves. Nothing in the enjoyment of "meaningless" flirtation, or the beauty and sex appeal of young women, precludes the capacity for deeper relationships. And what's this all about:
[String bikinis] are openly hostile: all show, no go. In this way there is nothing LESS sexual than a string bikini.
What a load of twaddle. Most of our myriad sexual interactions are "no go". By this definition just about all female sexual display is "hostile", since most females have not the slightest interest in having sexual relations with any but a tiny percentage of the men who are attracted to them. Modest little black dresses that are nonetheless sexy as hell must thereby be "hostile". Outrageous but "non-goal oriented" flirtation - hostile. And asexual. Huh?
There is a problem if a middle-aged man finds young women in their late-teens and early-20s to be the height of sexual attractiveness. Sexual attraction can never be based purely upon looks alone: there is no real person who consists of only looks, therefore it is counterproducive, at best, to find most-attractive women with whom there is no hope of actual interaction. [...] The women most attractive to a middle-aged man should be those with whom he could have an actual relationship. Beauty isn't only found in the very young, and the combination of physical beauty with some actual life experience is vastly more sexy than the callow beauty of youth alone - that is if you find actual living, breathing women more sexy than stereotypical abstractions.
Should? Sexual attraction is based on whatever it damn well pleases to base itself on. But putting aside this false notion that we have some sort of rational control over what we do or do not find attractive (which is a different issue from how we act upon it), where does anyone get off telling other people what they should or should not find attractive? It isn't a "problem" that a man of any age finds young women in their late teens and early twenties highly sexually attractive. It's biology. He may choose not to act on it, or may have little interest in pursuing a serious relationship with a young woman, but it is not a "problem" in itself that he is attracted to her beauty. And sometimes young women and middle-aged men fall in love and live happily ever after.
Women who wear string bikinis are not looking to interact with men, merely to tease and frustrate them in a display of power. The look both titillates and repels, is brazen but distancing, lewd but unflattering. It is a huge "shove off" to men who would like to actually interact with the women who wear them, rather than simply ogle them from a safe distance.
Ah geez. "Display of power". Oh pull-eeeeze. Good-lookin' young women displaying their charms poolside are not out there for the joy of rubbing men's noses in the dirt, any more than the men who take pleasure in beholding these beauties are bent on "dehumanizing" or "exploiting" them. It's not about alienating, isolating, avoiding interaction. It's about the joy of living.
Eric is careful to tell us that he "is not a prude". Well, I am a prude. I'd say I have a fair claim to being the biggest prude in the Blogosphere, with exacting tastes and unapologetic prejudices. But sometimes a string bikini is just a string bikini.
I made many generalizations. I should have taken responsibility for them all rather than make blanket statements. In my experience, everything I said is true, including the string bikini hostility. I haven't found it to be true for little black dresses, regular bikinis, etc. Every woman I have known who has worn one has admitted to me that she liked the power it gave her over men. Power was their word, like it or not.
You missed my main point entirely: flirting, looking, whatever is fine and dandy, but it's not the real thing.
Posted by: Eric Olsen on June 08, 2002
Nobody CLAIMED it was "the real thing".
Posted by: Steven Den Beste on June 09, 2002
I think what Eric wrote is the result of one of those misguided "women's studies" classes (not that all such classes that go under that heading are misguided, mind you). But I took a class that gave me that party line, too, and that, I guess, was what Eric was gassing on about. It took me about three years to realize it was all horse cookies and that what I heard about "women" and objectifying them in that class only related to the women who would never date most men anyway. Most women, like Moira says, have just as much fun with the looky loo game and flirting as men do, and it's mostly harmless. Not to mention fun.
Eric, if you ever read this, I'd like to suggest something fun. Find some women that you know like men, and ask them to explain why they look at guy's butts, and what they get from it. Make sure you buy them a drink for their trouble.
Posted by: Yahmdallah on June 09, 2002
Yep, sure sounded like a "women's studies" lecture to me, too.
Eric, you're sounding sillier by the post. First, anything that isn't a serious interaction is "pseudo-sexual". Now you're equating sexual power with sexual hostility. Let me get this straight - when a babelicious young woman struts her stuff in a string bikini, she does it for the thrill of sexual power over men it gives her. (I'd say "well, duh", but you say this like it's a bad thing - power equals hostility.) But if she chooses, say, a classic three-ring bikini, it's all about something else.
Right.
I have an evil secret to reveal here. The string bikini, the other bikinis, the little black dress, the well-cut jeans: they're all about making oneself sexually attractive. Aka exercising sexual power. Aka enjoying one's youth and good looks. Aka having fun.
Hey, if thongs aren't to your taste, fine. But constructing an entire theory of malicious intent out of popular Brazilian fashion? Get a grip.
And if your point was to tell us that there is a difference between looking and having a relationship, what are you going to enlighten us about next? That watching war movies is not the same experience as actually being a soldier?
Posted by: Moira on June 09, 2002
I like the chicks. I also like apple sauce and a long Pynchon novel. Sue me.
Posted by: Jeff G on June 09, 2002
They make string bikinis for men too. And there is the rare man who can -- and does -- wear one. Ones with really nice butts (grinning at yamdallah) Believe me, when I see one of those, I do look, and I enjoy the looking.
So there.
Posted by: Kat on June 09, 2002
>> Every woman I have known who has worn one has admitted to me that she liked the power it gave her over men. Power was their word, like it or not.
So?
What power and what men? And what do other men get out of it?
BTW - The "purpose" of sexual attraction is not to start a long and healthy relationship, even if it may have that effect in certain limited cases.
Posted by: Andy Freeman on June 09, 2002
Don't forget that string and thong bikinis first came to light on the beaches of Rio, where having a tiny flat ass is considered ugly. You do see a number of pudgy men and women, strutting their stuff, but for the most part, everyone in Brazil is absolutly gorgeous. Being looked at and looking back (without seeming to) is fun and part of the dance of life.
Posted by: ideefixe on June 09, 2002
I find your perspective balanced and refreshing. C.S Lewis once remarked on "the cheerful lechery endemic to our species". Accept it for what it is. I've been married 30 years, and can't imagine myself being unfaithful under any circumstances, but I can certainly enjoy the feminity of an attractive, pleasant woman as the wonder it is.
Posted by: Lauren Coats on June 10, 2002
The women who have most attracted me are those who have dressed in a teasing manner, obviously taking great care to do so. This tease can go from mildly stimulating to extremely frustrating. I may resent it, but must admit that the excitement and unfullfilled desire is also enjoyable. There is nothing better than a woman in a sleeveless blouse, tight shirt, and high heels who pretends not to notice the effect she has on you. Mediterranean and Latin (spelling?) women do this the best.
Posted by: Carl on April 03, 2003
The women who have most attracted me are those who have dressed in a teasing manner, obviously taking great care to do so. This tease can go from mildly stimulating to extremely frustrating. I may resent it, but must admit that the excitement and unfullfilled desire is also enjoyable. There is nothing better than a woman in a sleeveless blouse, tight shirt, and high heels who pretends not to notice the effect she has on you. Mediterranean and Latin (spelling?) women do this the best.
Posted by: Carl on April 03, 2003
I often sit on the beach and wonder why women walk by me in various shapes and sizes. I guess it is because I do not own the beach? Sometimes I play in the water and look for shells, and sometimes I stay at the pool and play in the water. Sometimes I cook out on the condo deck and see if any of the intern security patrols come and threaten me. Sometimes I drop a soda can down the ole trash flume from the 9th floor and see how long it takes to beat and bang its way to the bottom. All in all, the only reason I don't live at the coast is because I hate sweeping sand. The bikinis keep me sweeping in the Summer, though, and I honestly don't care why women wear them. Maybe I am just shallow. Maybe I philosophized and theorized enough in college and I no longer feel the need to do so. Yes, bikinis are good. The beach is better. Great seafood is the best! You folks speaking of the cognitive functioning and interpretation of various bikini interactions are sick and in need of a stiff drink and a Western.
Posted by: Bikini Bob on April 07, 2003